Sarah and Chandra talk about going from “I love you” to “I do.” Sarah shares about her busted proposal plans, and Chandra shares how she was blindsided with religious haters *after* she became engaged to a woman. Sarah and Chandra talk about the one decision that shifted their wedding planning from major drama to major fun. They wrap up the episode by giving a quick rundown of the struggles of the last four years and how 2020 was the year God started opening doors and clearing the way for what’s next.
Music by Scott Holmes. used with permission under CC.
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S: Hi, I'm Sarah.
C: And I'm Chandra.
S: And this is "Queer chats about Jesus."
C: A podcast about reclaiming faith, sexuality, and Jesus, within queer relationships. Happy new year,
S: Happy New year! We're really excited. We love the new year. Chandra's favorite holiday.
C: For sure. Yeah. I love fresh starts. I love the brand new year. I love setting goals that you're never going to accomplish.
S: So it's New Years' 2021. I think we all hope that 2021 is not the shit show 2020 was.
C: Yeah. I would like to say, how could it be? But then that feels like daring the universe to prove me wrong.
S: Yeah, let's not poke that bear.
C: Nope. Let's not.
S: We did not know how deep the rabbit hole would go in 2020. Let's all be real. We did not expect this shit to turn out the way that it did.
C: Yep. So hopefully, 2021 will be a slight uphill tick or the beginning of an uphill tick.
S: You don't even have enough faith to be like; it's going to be good. You're like; it might hopefully not be as bad.
C: Yes, that is exactly my hope for '21 is that it will be slightly better than 2020.
S: Let's keep those expectations low.
C: Because let's be real. The disaster of 2020 will take many years to overcome. It's not going to be like by the end of 2021; we were like, "see guys, look, we did it. The world is all fixed now."
S: Wouldn't it be so nice if that's what happened, though? Wouldn't it be so nice if, like, after the horribleness of 2020, you get a miracle year of 2021, and everything is fixed.
C: Yep. That would be so beautiful and so perfect. But it's not gonna happen.
S: Yeah, I guess racism, sexism, and all that jazz that we have exposed now in 2020, well it's always been exposed but, now more people are paying attention. I guess that just can't be all fixed in one year.
We're gonna have to keep working at that. But you know the thing that's disappointing is like as a kid, like learning about racism and learning about oppression, and all the things that were were going on. I always just assumed that by the time I was an adult, it would be done. Like we all know about it like so I just kind of, as a kid, I thought like 'oh by the time I'm an adult, it'll be like, cuz we know about it.' but that is not the case.
C: No. That really is the depressing and sad part, isn't it?
S: Yeah, that is the super depressing and sad part. So I guess the only thing we can do is move forward and recap our last three episodes.
C: For sure.
S: Ok. So in our last episode, we finished talking about us saying, "I love you" for the first time. That was the end of the last episode. So this episode, we're going to kind of talk about what happened after that. Which as we've said in a couple of times that, um, Chandra was in an intentional queer community, it was supposed to be based off the book of acts, where everyone came together and shared their finances, shared their lives together, lived life to life, and took care of each other as, as the book of acts, illustrates.
C: Basically like a family. That's really what it was. We were living like we were a nuclear family, even though we weren't.
S: And so basically when I said, I love you to her. Things got a lot more serious, and I mean, we both knew at that point in time, we were going to get married.
C: Oh, for sure.
S: I think there was not a question in our mind once we, we passed that hurdle, we were on our way to marriage.
C: Yeah. We were already having conversations about marriage, and we were having conversations, not only between us but with my roommates, about you joining our community. Because like my intent, when I started with that was that I would find somebody who would be willing to join me in that. So we did talk about what would happen if people got married, and we didn't envision that that would be the disillusion of our community if that happened. So we were having conversations about you joining, merging your finances, and you started moving in with us.
S: Right. And for me, it was not a weird thing. Like Chandra, really thought it was going to be a deal-breaker for whoever she was going to date and marry. But honestly, I mean, I've read the book of acts. I thought that was an awesome way to live a lot. I actually had conversations with some people, not about exactly what Chandra's community was like, but you know, about living together, about sharing resources, about taking care of each other, about loving each other unconditionally as Christ. So basically, yeah, creating a a family of the people that you choose. And so that's always been something that I I've always thought about. I mean, I loved when I went on a mission trip, and we all lived together, we all ate together, and we, we lived together. I've always loved that. So it wasn't like a hard sell for me. It was like, "ok, where do I sign up?"
C: Yeah, for sure. But then things started to shift through the process of having those conversations. And, there had been a few things that had started to creep up even before you, and I started dating.
S: So when we started talking about me joining the community, there was some controlling behaviors that started showing themselves. And I started actually stashing money because I started to feel uncomfortable about the situation that was happening. I didn't know why I couldn't put my finger on it. It was just like, I'm going to just going to keep some money for us just in case we need to leave. Anytime you do that, that's a red flag. Like if you've ever been in an abusive relationship or around abusive relationships like anytime someone starts stashing money, that's usually an indication that the situation they're in is unhealthy and it doesn't feel safe. So I started stashing money, and then we did decide to leave. We're not going to go into the whole details of why; essentially, it came down to power and control. The whole reason we were attracted to the book of acts is because it was very egalitarian, and it just became more and more apparent as we started talking about me moving in that it was not equal.
C: Yeah. And there's something within the queer community. That's kind of a, it's not really a secret, but it's not really openly talked about. And it's the fact that gay guys have a tendency to struggle with misogyny because they don't really have to confront that because they aren't attracted to women. And we started to see that full-on where our roommates thought that they could control when we were allowed to go out. And when we were allowed to spend time together and how much money I was allowed to spend and stuff like that. Where it went from being egalitarian to, "Oh, we're in charge, and you guys got to do what we say."
S: Yeah.
C: And when that revealed itself, I was like, "this is not what I signed up for." Like, "I'm not doing this." Like, "we're out."
S: No, and one of the best parts about being in a, in a same-gender relationship is that there's not those gender identity roles right.
C: Right.
S: Where the man controls and the woman submits. And that's like, one of the best things about being a queer there is. That you can throw all those stereotypes in the garbage, understanding that they're rooted in misogyny, power, and control. Then to like be in a queer community where it's like, "Oh, let's reestablish this horrible practice of like, we own you now." And it's like,
C: Right.
S: "No."
C: Yeah.
S: "No, thank you."
C: And that definitely was what it felt like at the end where it was like, "Oh, you don't get to make the decisions. You don't have any say in this. You do what we say."
S: Yeah.
C: And I was like, "no."
S: And we were like, "gross, no peace out. Sorry."
C: Yeah.
S: No.
C: Yeah, for sure.
S: Not happening.
C: We left that situation and, that kind of dashed your hopes of proposing, cause you had been saving up for a ring and you had had this whole grand big proposal that you were starting to plan.
S: Ok. So I had this whole proposal thought out, and it was going to be like rose petals and candles up to the roof. Cause they had a rooftop deck, it was gonna be twinkle lights out there and music. And I was gonna get on one knee and propose in the grand gesture of love. And that all kind of went to crap when we had to move. Partially because I didn't have that space to to do up the way that I had been planning, and also because all of the money I'd saved for her engagement ring was then spent on moving expenses.
C: Yeah. So when we moved out of the community, you told me that that was your plan to propose. And while I knew that you were planning to propose, I had no idea it was going to be that grand and romantic.
I was super excited that that was your planned proposal. But I also was like, "but I don't need like a big proposal." Like "I just want something quiet and simple, and between the two of us that's meaningful to us," and you were like, "well, I'm not gonna propose until I get you a proper ring." That was super important to you. So you were trying to resave for the ring, but since we had kind of already put it out there that you were planning to propose, you would like start to mess around with me. So we would be doing something, and you would like to stop, and you'd look me in the eyes, and you'd grab my hands. And you would be like, "will you live with me forever?"
S: Yeah. Well, she she's also forgetting that the first time I asked her out, she turned me down, and she, she kind of like had a way of, we, we talked about it in the last episode of pumping the brakes. So part of the reason that I was doing that is not just to mess with her. Like I'm not a sick person like that, but it was also like when I'm propose, you better say fricking yes, that would be so awkward. Like we've been talking about marriage, and we've talking about this. And I like ask her to marry me. And she's like, "Oh, I didn't know you really meant that." And so it wasn't just to be a jerk.
It was like also I did want to save up for a ring, and I could not figure out another way to propose. That was the thing that I put, like all my thoughts into. So I had, like, I had no backup plan, so that was unfortunate. So I was trying to figure out a better way to propose. I was trying to save up for a ring, but moving out and stuff, costed us a bit more than I had anticipated. So saving up was not easy.
C: Right. Yeah. And I was working part-time at the time and I, I wasn't able to go back to full-time work immediately. So things were tight for us, but I wasn't saying that because you were being mean, I thought it was incredibly romantic and very cute. And I loved the fact that you were doing that.
She'd been doing this for like a month and a half or something. And we were laying in bed one night, and she was in my arms. And we were both like, just on the cusp of about to fall asleep. And she just goes, "will you marry me?" And I, my eyes pop open, and I like looked down at you, and you've still got your eyes closed. And you're just like stroking my arm or something. And in my head, I was like, I wanted to be like, 'are you serious?' Because you were like almost asleep. I wasn't sure you were being serious. And then I was like, 'if she's really proposing, I'm gonna fuck it up. If I say anything, but yes,'
S: This is why I prepared her people. Cause this is, this is why I prepared her. This is why.
C: Well, you trained me well cause I looked at you, and I was like, "yes." And you just kept your eyes closed. And I was like, "that was a real proposal. Right?" You were like, "yes." And I was like, "yes, of course. Yes. Yes." And then I think you like opened your eyes and stuff, and you were like, "sorry, I don't have a ring." And I was like, it's fine. I don't need a ring. It's totally. Ok. And then you were like, "actually; I do have a ring."
S: Cuz the thing with me, what was happening in my brain is I was so relaxed. And so, like just enjoying her company and enjoying the safety, when I'm with Chandra, I feel safe. I feel very secure. And so it wasn't like, this is the moment I'm going to propose. It was just like, this is the moment I can't, I can't keep it in anymore. Just kind of like how we said, I love you. It was like that moment of like, maybe this isn't the perfect time, but this I'm done, like holding it in. I'm done pretending, like let's just get on with our lives. So I went and got a ring that my grandma had given me on my 13th birthday that I had had with me through all my moves and all my everything. So it was like, it was special to me. So I gave it to her, and it was like, "will you marry me?"
C: And for me, it was perfect because it was uniquely us, and I, I love a romantic gesture. I love romantic proposals. They make me all giddy inside. The proposal on "How I met your Mother" makes me cry every single time. So I love a good, well thought out proposal, but that was us. It was casual; it was relaxed. It was intimate. It was planned out and spur of the moment all at the same time. And it was perfect for us.
S: So that was our proposal. Once we got engaged, it was like, "ok, God, we know you have a calling for us together." Because we'd always prayed like, "what's your will for me, Sarah, or for Chandra." But after our engagement, was a lot of prayer and a lot of seeking after God for His will for us as a couple.
C: Yeah.
S: Along with planning an awesome wedding, which I'll let Chandra talk about.
C: Yeah. So right after we got engaged, I was like super excited. I was like, "yay. Now we can plan my dream wedding" because my dream wedding had always been to get married on a beach, on a tropical Island. And since Sarah was from Hawaii, I was like, 'Ding, ding, ding. I get my dream wedding.' So we started having conversations about what it would look like to get married in Hawaii. And it very quickly became a situation where we realized we were nowhere near on the same page with what a Hawaiian wedding would look like because you know, me being white mainland girl, I was like, "I want the big flowy dress, on the beach." And Sarah was like, "you'll be way too hot for that." I was like, "I want my hair and my makeup done up perfectly." You're like, "it's humid there. It won't last." I was like, "I want everybody on the beach in like fancy chairs." You're like, "that's super expensive." Like it was just it was like...
S: I wasn't trying to shit on her dreams. Like that's not what I was going for.
C: Right.
S: But for me, I was like, ok, if we're going to get married in Hawaii, then we're going to call up my friends. Like we're going to borrow chairs. We're going to have a barbecue. Like I was like, "ok, if we're going to get married in Hawaii, it's like casual all the way." Like I'm going to get a aloha shirt like we're gonna do it. And not everyone gets married like that in Hawaii. But for me, it was like, if we're going to get married in Hawaii, then I want it to be like my local friends. I want it to be a celebration. I want it to be a party. I want it to be a barbecue. I didn't want it to be basically a mainland ceremony in Hawaii.
C: Right. And that's what I had always dreamed of. And as we had more conversations and you shared more with me about the culture of Hawaii and actually what the US government had done to the Hawaiian monarchy, like I just became less and less comfortable with that idea. There was also the practical consideration of cost. It would have been way too expensive to do what I wanted to do. And we were paying for it all on our own.
S: Yeah. We didn't want to take out credit.
C: Yeah, so we were having these conversations, and it was becoming more and more clear that that just wasn't realistic.
And then I was also having this odd experience where a lot of people who had initially supported me when I came out like stopped supporting me just because I was now in a relationship.
So I had come out to a lot of Christians that I had known, evangelical friends from all the churches that I had been through. I was super prepared to lose a lot of people when I first started coming out because I understood the way that they viewed homosexuality. But the odd thing was because I was coming out as bisexual, they had no problem with it. They were like, "Oh yeah, well, we understand. And like, everybody has their thing. And like, we love you. We support you. This doesn't change anything." And then when I got engaged, to a woman. It was literally like person after person was like, "can't hang out with you anymore because you're living in a quote-unquote lifestyle of sin." And I was like, 'are you kidding me?'
It threw me for a loop because I was like prepared for that when I came out, right. Like I was prepared to lose everybody. I'd read the stories. I like knew that that was something that was going to be a deal-breaker for people. And then when it wasn't, I was like, 'Oh, people that I know must be more progressive than I gave them credit for. Hey, cool.' But then when I was actually in a quote-unquote homosexual relationship, and I wasn't in the right relationship, AKA a heterosexual relationship. Oh, well, now you're engaging in a lifestyle of sin, and we can't be associated with you. So the first few months of our engagement were really, really hard for me because I like, we made that initial list of people that were going to come to our wedding. Right. That we were going to invite. And then I like had to cut like literally like 40 people off that list, because I just had experience after experience of them being like, "Oh, we won't even meet your fiance because we don't agree with your lifestyle."
S: "But we love you."
C: "But we love you." Yeah.
S: "#Jesuslove."
C: And I would like pushback at them, and I'd be like, "that's not love." like "Jesus hung out with people he didn't agree with their lifestyles all the time. So it's fine for you to say that you don't want to associate with me because of this, but don't you dare say that you're loving me right now because that's a lie."
S: Yeah.
C: Just nothing like, never hear from them again.
S: Yeah. And her experience kind of, I mean, I had my own experiences because when we were thinking about getting married in Hawaii, I was very involved with a lot of churches there. So I reached out to some people that I was fairly close to. I do respect the fact that people still weren't ok with being a homosexual.
C: Yeah.
S: Because I had just come to terms with it myself as being a gay woman, my entire life. Um, so I didn't hold it against anyone. So I like reached out to this one, pastor who I knew pretty well. Um, I had gone to that church for several years and like done a mission trip out of it and all those kinds of stuff as a leader. And I reached out to him, and I said, "Hey, I don't want to put you on the spot, but I really love your church. I love the location. Could we get married there, or do you have a theological issue with homosexual marriage?" And he said, "I'm so sorry. I wish that I could, but I just, we, we don't agree with homosexuality." And I was like, "cool, that's fine. I appreciate your honesty." I appreciate people, though, when they're just honest.
C: For sure.
S: But then I reached out to this guy who was basically like a little brother to me. He got saved with my group of friends, like coming over to my house, like every single day for several hours, who was like a little brother to me. And he actually said that like, oh, I'm your brother, you know? And he was, like, "yeah, you are. You're part of the family." I think they even came to like Thanksgiving and Christmas and like the whole nine. And I reached out to him and said like, "Hey, I know your, your wife..." who side note when they were getting together before he had ever asked her out, he said, "can you come meet this girl? And tell me if she's into me." And I was like, "she is, you should ask her out. She's a good one." So they got married, and her father ran a church that was right on the beach; it was a beautiful church. And so I just reached out to him. I was like, "Hey, I don't know, like theologically where this church stands on homosexuality, but I just wanted to see, like, if there would be a possibility we could get married at this church." And he just totally ghosted me. And unfortunately, I did it through Facebook. So you can see when someone reads it and then just no response.
So I really had a hard time with that because after her experience and then a few of mine, own experiences of like reaching out to people and just if they didn't agree with it then not like just being honest about it and just ghosting me, which is really more hurtful because I, I really didn't have a problem with the pastor who was just like, "Oh, I wish we could, but we can't. I'm sorry. We just don't agree with it." Cause I'm like, yeah, get it for 13 years. I didn't agree with it either. So like, I'm not like, "Oh really? I'm shocked!" you know like hello. But, it was more, the people that just didn't respond. They didn't have the decency to have a conversation. And that really was like, ok, so her guest list got chopped. And basically if, I didn't know, like 100% someone was affirming, I just didn't ask them.
C: Well, that was the thing is once we had a few of these encounters, we both kind of sat down and we realized that you were working like 70 hours a week to make this wedding happen in a different state. You weren't really excited about the idea of that wedding. And I was realizing that the number of people that I was going to invite was getting cut by, by two thirds. And so we just kind of like had a heart to heart one day, we were like, "what are we doing?" Like "this isn't fun. And this should be fun."
S: Yeah
C: "This should be the most joyous time of our lives and our relationship." Like, "we need to make this fun for ourselves." And so, I mean, you were like, "I don't want to get married in Hawaii."
S: So I was really having a crisis of conscience, um, getting married in Hawaii as a white couple from the mainland, because before I left, I'd spent a lot of time with people involved in the sovereignty movement and understanding where they were coming from. Understanding, what the United States had actually done to the Hawaiian people and the Hawaiian monarchy, and broken treaties and broken trust and, threats of violence and all the stuff that was really, really horrible. And so, being assigned to go to Hawaii was one thing, but then choosing to get married. And I don't know; I just felt like it wasn't my place to get married there. Even though, like, I felt like I have a lot of friends who are Hawaiian and stuff who would have been like, "dude, it's fine."
But I just, at that point in time, I just didn't feel like it was right. I didn't feel like it was right to to go there and get married and be a tourist and do all those things. Because I don't know, it's just the contribution of oppression, I guess, anyways, I just didn't feel comfortable with it. And it was getting worse and worse, especially when Chandra was talking about her ideal wedding, as opposed to my ideal wedding. So I was just like, there was just this like tension, and it was just not fun.
C: Yeah. So we finally had a conversation about it, and you were like, "I don't want to get married in Hawaii." And I was like, "well, we can't really afford it anyway." So we were like, "well, what would we do?" Because that was the only dream, I'd ever had. Right.
S: And I was like, "masquerade."
C: Yeah. I was like, "well, let's get married in a ballroom." And you're like, "let's do a masquerade. Let's get married in October." And I was like, "eh, I don't want to get married in October." And you were like, "but why? It's like great." You're like "getting married in October." Like "the weather will be cooler. It'll be cheaper." Like, "I love October."
S: I love October here. It is amazing. All the trees turn orange and red and pink, and they're beautiful. October is like the best time in the Pacific Northwest, in my humble opinion. And Chandra's like, "I don't like the fall." And I'm like, "your favorite color is freaking orange." Like, "what the hell do you mean you don't like the fall?" like that don't make no sense. So I'm like, "let's get married in October." Like, "trust me, it's going to be awesome. It's going to be cooler. Everything's like, it's going to be perfect for pictures." Cause all the trees turn. And uh, I finally convinced her to get married in October.
C: Yup. I finally relented that October would be good. And so we started planning this masquerade, but the issue with that was going to be the venue because venues can be really, really expensive. Anybody who's planned a wedding knows the venues can can make or break your budget. So we were looking around for all these cheaper options. And I finally found this place that was through a city instead of like privately owned because of that they charge like literally like a third of what other venues would charge.
S: Yeah.
C: And we went and toured it. And it's this grand Manor, like 7,000 square foot house, like on several acres of property. And they had this like big, huge concrete deck out back where you could actually have your ceremony under a tent that would seat like more than 200 people. So it was just, it was perfect. And we were like sold.
S: Yeah.
C: And it was like, once we found that venue, once we put the deposit down like everything changed about our wedding. It went from like all this stress and trauma and disappointment to joy and fun. And yeah, we did a lot of DIY's for it, so we like decided to keep costs down that we would do a bunch of stuff ourselves. So we started doing all these DIY projects with our friends, and we like made my bouquet out of flowers, fabric flowers, and, Oh God, we decided at one point in time, we were going to do paper roses. You remember this?
S: Oh, I remember, babe, this is not easy to forget.
C: So, for two months, we overtook your mom's kitchen. And we were dying hundreds. Like, I think literally like five to 600...
S: Oh, way more. Yeah, because each package was like 500. It was like thousands and thousands...
C: We dyed like 1200 coffee filters with red Rit dye to create these paper flowers...
S: And yellow.
C: And yellow, that's right. And then I left them all on a plane.
S: She did. She took him with her. Cuz her grandma was moving up to Washington because her grandma wanted to be part of our wedding. And it was at the point in time where she needed to go into a care facility. And so her grandma was like, well, instead of being stuck in California with, with no one, she decided that because she wanted to be at our wedding, that she would just move up to Washington and stay in a facility here. So her grandma was like on board, which is funny. Cause you know, that generation, you kind of assume was not going to be ok with the homosexual lifestyle or whatever.
C:(28:01): My mom was literally the one who told my grandma. Right. And that we were getting married and that I was bisexual, and her response was, well, why are they getting married? Why don't they just live together as sisters?
S: Yeah. Cause it was like kind of how back in the day people we used to roll. So it was pretty funny that her grandma was just like, "no, it's fine." Like, "I'm not like opposed to it just..."
C: Well, nobody was openly queer in my family. Right? And then she never like dated or got remarried after her and my grandfather divorced.
S: Yeah. So, you know, you never know.
C: I think there's probably a good chance that she actually wasn't straight.
S: Well, you just lived together. It's fine.
C: She loved You. She loved you the same way that I loved you. She saw all the same things in you that I saw.
S: Yeah. Me and her grandma got along really well. She was hilarious and fun. And I guess she wasn't like that all growing up. Cuz she's very German and stoic, but there towards the end, she was like, yeah, she liked tap danced for us and stuff. Cuz she used to work on a showboat. Ok, It was pretty awesome. So she wanted to be up there for our wedding.
C: So I flew down to help my mom make arrangements and ended up leaving all of these dyed paper filters on the plane.
S: It was so much work. It was like, literally, like we had been doing that for months.
C: And then in one week. I just like leave it on the plane.
S: So we're like F that like, we're going to buy those little foam cheap ones from like wish or whatever. Like super cheap.
C: Yeah. We got them on Amazon, which is also hilarious because, like on Amazon, they look like all full and great and right. And then they like came in the package and they were like squished to like a third of their size because you have to use a hairdryer...
S: Yeah.
C: To get them to pouf out...
S: So we had to like hand reform them into like actual flowers. But anyhow, it was a whole thing. It was like a lot of DIY. And um, it was a lot of just going for it. And we discussed before that like we got different decorations for all of our tables.
C: Yeah. So every table had a theme based off of either a movie or a play.
S: Yeah.
C: To go in with a masquerade theme. So there were masquerade masks on every table. And then the decor was themed...
S: Like "Beauty and the Beast"...
C: After like "Beauty and the Beast," "Three Musketeers"...
S: Each one had a theme. We got these moss-covered squirrels that our friend like went gaga over, who was also our day-of coordinator. She was amazing. Thank you. And so we obviously put those at her table when we assigned it. And she had like a whole spring decor of like basically stuff that she would enjoy.
And so it was kind of fun because we got to, we didn't do it for everyone necessarily. But if somebody was like really into, like, my mom was really into one of the tablecloths we had bought. And so that was on her table. And so some stuff like that, where if people were involved in it and they said that they liked something, then we put that at the table they were at. So it was fun.
C: Yeah. It was really cool because I also didn't realize like the connection to Halloween and the queer community. But doing a masquerade ball was like, it ended up being something where we could like honor being queer but also make it very personal and have a lot of fun doing it. And like you said, personalize it to our guests.
S: It was really cool that my family, even though we kind of were homophobic growing up and like really wasn't a thing in my family. And it was kind of, you know, it wasn't supported.
My whole family was just like, "Oh, you're engaged. We're on board. We'll come, we'll help. We'll do this. We'll do that. We're going to celebrate you. And Chandra's part of the family." And like, everyone was just onboard. My uncle married us, and he was so stoked. Cause he got to wear his Batman mask. So he wore his Batman mask, the entire like reception pretty much, which was awesome and hilarious and fun. And I think the masquerade thing just kind of took the edge off because a lot of the people that were coming to our wedding, I think, not every single person was comfortable with gay marriage.
C: Yeah.
S: Like some people came and just because they...
C: Wanted to support us. Yep.
S: And so they came, even though "we're not exactly sure how we feel about this, but God didn't tell us no. So we're going to show up." And, and everyone was really supportive. Everyone was lovely. We had a lot of cancellations at the last minute, which was annoying, and it just wedding annoyance, not anything that have to do with us being gay, but everybody that was there was so much fun.
C: Yeah.
S: And everyone that was there was just like, let's freaking party. Like let's, you know, and I set up like the musical list, and I like picked different music cause like, like some of our good friends, dance salsa. So definitely had some salsa music in there. And then my whole family dances like country, like swing country. Country swing, I guess, is what it's called. I don't know. Um, so we had some country music in there, and then we just had some good eighties, like just let's get, let's just move. And then I think one of our friends was like, "Hey, let's do this..." I think they did the cha-cha or what, what is it?
C: It was the electric slide. So we had like decided that we weren't going to do any of the corny, like overused wedding stuff. So we didn't do a bouquet toss or a garter toss or like any of that stuff,
S: We didn't plan speeches,
C: We didn't plan speeches.
S: We weren't going to do a first dance, but then we ended up doing a first dance.
C: Our first dance was like the one thing we did decide that we wanted to do; it was a little bit chaotic because our like our order of ceremony didn't get exactly followed, but that was fine with us. Cause we were like, it's a party.
S: Yeah.
C: Like the really funny thing was, is like when I am in project mode when I'm in creative mode, I am very, very type a, so we do things in this order, and we have a plan for everything. We have backup plans for backup plans. And so, like the year and a half planning that wedding, I was like that a lot.
S: Oh, really? Huh? I didn't even notice.
C: I'm not saying that for your benefit. I'm telling our listeners.
S: You're looking me in the eyeballs. I'm like, "um, yeah. I, I am aware." She wasn't a bridezilla. She was just like, it would be like we were hanging out, and then it'd be like all of a sudden she realized like we needed to get something done for the wedding. So it'd be like do, do, do, do, do, like everything's "Hey, ok. So you need to get this out, and you need to..." And I'm like, 'what the hell just happened?' like, 'is this like marriage life? Or is this like Bridezilla, or what is this?' Cause it wasn't like she was being mean. It was just like, "and now we work." ok...
C: And like I had said that I was doing that so that I could relax the day of. And I think there were a lot of people who didn't believe that I would relax the day of,
S: AKA, my entire family.
C: Well, And even my entire family, like, they were all like, "Oh yeah, whatever Chandra, you don't know how to relax. Like you won't like just have fun on your wedding day and let it all go." And I did, like, there were like apparently fires being put out left and right that I had no clue about. And I was just having the time of my life.
S: Yeah, I mean, we kind of both did that, though. I mean, like one of my friends, cause we, we couldn't have hard liquor without it being a really expensive and having to get a new liquor license, all this cuz you have to have someone serve it and all that. So it's like a, it's a whole nother level of issues. So we just didn't have hard liquor. We had wine, and we had beer, and one of my friends is like, "what's your favorite drink?" And I'm like, "Tennessee, honey, Jack Daniel's whiskey." And they're like, "ok, we'll be back." And so they like went and then they like called me out to the parking lot. And then I just called a bunch of like our, my drinking friends or our drinking friends. And I was like, "come on, guys." And they were like, "what are we doing?" And I'm like, "don't worry about it. Let's just go." So we were like in the parking lot, like passing around, uh, you know, this is obviously pre COVID. We're like passing around this bottle of Jack and just getting hammered, basically. And like getting drunker and drunker and you can see, as the night goes on, me kind of like getting a little bit more and more toasted.
Like it wasn't like full-on falling down drunk or anything. But, um, at one moment, like I did not wear like nice socks because I was like, 'no one's going to see my feet.' Cause I'm wearing like boots, like knee-high boots. And so as the night goes on, like all of a sudden you see these like bright blue striped socks that I'm wearing. Because at some point in time, I lost my shoes. Um, I think I took them off cause they were like hurting my feet. Cause I don't wear heels very often. But anyway, like all of a sudden, I'm like bright blue striped socks. And then I remember I went back out into the parking lot.
C: Oh, but they were also mismatched. So one was neon green stripes, and one was bright blue stripes.
S: Oh, were they?
C: Yeah, you were wearing Seahawk's socks basically with this like fancy, like Victorian-inspired ensemble,
S: All black.
C: Like all black. And then there's your...
S: Bright blue
C: Bright blue and neon green. Sport socks.
S: Yes. And then, as the night progresses, I'm like, my socks are gone. So I'm just like running around barefoot. Like just dancing it out in my bare feet. Whatevs, we do what we like; I'm still from Colorado. We're still a little country. Don't worry about it.
C: The other funny thing about our wedding was, we decided to come down the aisle together, and yeah, it was not super planned that we were going to come down together, but we decided the week of that's what we wanted to do. And they had set up the chairs the night before after we had done our rehearsal dinner. So we didn't actually see the full setup until we get down there. And Sarah's looking at the aisle, and she's looking at me, and our day of coordinator like, mind you this is as our music has started, as people are filing in, she like runs to our day-of coordinator, and me, and she's like, "the aisles not wide enough for us to go down."
S: "We're not going to fit."
C: And both our day-of coordinator and me are like, "it'll be fine. It's fine. I'm sure it's wide enough."
S: I'm like, "it's not; I'm telling you it is not wide enough."
C: Right. So we had these white lanterns on stanchions with candles in them at the end of every single aisle on both sides. So as everybody's walking down, it's fine. It's great. Even my best man with my grandmother made it down there. But then I was in this big, huge ball gown, like original beauty and the beast inspired ballgown with like pickups and the whole nine yards, a huge train. And so Sarah and I, arm in arm, start walking down the aisle, and my dress starts tipping over the stanchions.
S: You're just hearing the glass shatter...
C: You hear glass shatter on my dress and stuff. And then people were freaking out about the candles inside, thinking that it was going to set my dress on fire. But I had been to a wedding in my twenties where the bride's dress actually did get set on fire by tea lights. So we only used LED candles at our wedding.
C: So these sanctions are falling. These, these lanterns are toppling.
S: Like our guests are grabbing candles. And like holding onto the poles.
C: My dad's like freaking out. Like one of my best friends is like grabbing the candles off my dress. And I like turn around, and I see the chaos going on behind me. And I look at Sarah and Sarah's like shaking her head because she knew this was going down, and I just start laughing. And like, I looked up at the altar and like everybody at the altar is like holding their breath. Like "what, what are they going to do?"
S: Yeah, they thought we were totally gonna panic.
C: And when we start laughing. Everybody else just starts laughing.
S: Yeah. Cuz as soon as the actual ceremony was happy. So number one, we prayed before the ceremony with all our bridesmaids. And then I prayed at the beginning of the ceremony, and then we prayed after because we wanted to make sure, especially for the people that weren't sure if you could be Gay and Christian who were there...
C: Yeah.
S: Who we loved and everything, we wanted to make sure the Holy Spirit was present. We wanted to make sure that our marriage was entered into intentionally bringing God into the middle.
C: Yes.
S: So it was hilarious because as soon as like everything started and I was like, "we're not going to fit," but more like, we're just, we're doing it. We're going, whatever happens happen. It was fine. Like everything was fine. Cause it was just like, God is good. It's going to be fine. Like, who cares? Like at that point in time, we just wanted to be married. So we didn't really give a rat's behind what happened after that point.
C: Yeah. We did a quick ceremony. Our ceremony total, I think, was like, what? 10, 15 minutes.
S: Yeah. We literally cut out anything that wasn't like a central for legality, and we added prayer, and we did, communion.
C: Yep. We wanted to celebrate with people. We didn't want people to have to sit around for an hour, like listening to a sermon and all this other stuff, which I'm not throwing shade at weddings that do that. We had just sat through so many of those weddings by the time that we got married because we were 33 that we were like, "this doesn't need to be the focus."
S: We just wanna focus on God.
C: Right.
S: So we did do communion. We did pray. We were just like, this is about God and us. This is about God and our commitment to each other and our commitment to him. And we wanted to start our marriage on a very, very like God first basis, basically.
C: Yep.
S: So everything else that didn't have to do with God or legality was like, cut.
C: One of your best friends who you knew from your bakery, did our, did our cake, but she said she wouldn't do a cake. So she made this; we'll have to post this on Instagram. She made this elaborate cupcake stand in the shape of a peacock. And she made the whole stand from scratch, and she made every cupcake from scratch. And then she made this peacock that was made out of styrofoam and fondant at the top. So one eye was on each individual cupcake, and so it made this huge tail.
And Sarah was so, so frustrated with me because the inspiration picture that I had sent was this like white peacock on a circular table with like hundreds of white little cupcakes.
S: It looked like a peacock. But it was like pretty generic. Pretty, it was pretty; it was one color.
C: It was pretty generic, Yeah. It was just one color. They were all white. And I like sent her that as an inspiration picture, and I was like, "do whatever you want with it." And she created this elaborate four-tiered.
S: It was not four-tier. It was like six, eight.
C: Yeah. So
S: Yeah. It had a ton of tiers.
C: It was like giant, the thing alone. It was probably what, five feet high.
S: It was like 140 cupcakes. We only had like 30 people show up to our wedding.
C: Yeah. But it was tall, and it was huge, and the peacock was elaborate. And I like see this, and I'm like, "I'm going to cry." And Sarah was like...
S: "You better freaking not," because I'm like bawling through the whole thing. Like through our vows when I'm praying like, like...
C: During the ceremony.
S: Yeah. That's what I was saying. Yeah. And I'm like praying like I'm crying pretty much the entire time. Like off and on. Not like the whole time, not sobbing, like luckily, but I'm like crying pretty much the entire time. She's not a, not a tear, not a tear from her German eye. Not a tear, and then...
C: That's not true. My eyes were glistening. I was holding back. Like my voice was shaking. This is actually why I didn't want to do video because my voice was cracking and shaking the entire time because I was trying to keep from losing it.
S: Yeah. Well, it's like not horrible that you'd cry on your wedding. And then we get over to the cupcake table, which was amazing and immaculate and fantastic. And we will post pictures of that. It was, it was fucking awesome. But um, she gets over there. "I'm gonna cry," I'm like, "shut your face. You will not."
C: It was just so funny that you were like, so bitter...
S: I was just so offended it was like, "you don't cry about like exchanging vows with me, but you're going to cry because my friend makes really awesome cupcakes, stand" like, yeah, no.
C: But the problem is, if I had like started crying over the cupcakes, it would have been like a tear or two. Right. If I had started crying during our ceremony, it would have been like ugly crying and I full-on ugly cry. Like you've only seen me cry a handful of times because it is so ugly. And I was wearing contacts. I had false lashes. Like I had a ton of mascara. Like I had to keep in my emotion of marrying you because it would have ruined my entire look for the rest of the night if I had lost it during our ceremony. But if I'd lost it over the cupcakes, it would've just been like that Hollywood tear, just a single one rolling down the eye,
S: Whatever. Anyways.
C: But yeah. Sarah's like, "you love the cupcakes more than you love me."
S: Yeah, that's what it totally seemed like, cause I didn't see no glistening, her voice cracking cause I was a mess. So I didn't notice that for her, which is probably not super considerate. Anywho.
C: Well, there's photographic evidence.
S: Oh, is there photographic evidence?
C: There is Photographic evidence.
S: Well, good thing, Cuz' I'm gonna look that up. So our wedding was a lot of fun. We had a really, really good time after that went to our honeymoon, which was on the Big Island.
C: And we got to swim with dolphins, which was a bucket list item of mine, so that was a lot of fun.
S: Yeah. It was a lot of fun. We went on my cousin's boat to, he was the boat captain, and he was like "um, you can do the dolphins, or you can do the manta ray swim," and he was like, "or you could do both it's really up to you." And we're like, "Oh, what's the manta ray swim?" and he's like, "Oh, you go out at night, and there's a big light that attracts them, and they swim around you while you're out in the ocean at night in the dark." I'm like, "mmm, no, thank you."
C:'s always wanted to swim with dolphins. So we were like, "Yes, we're gonna do the dolphins but no thank you on the night like… bait trip, I don't know… like what the hell…. No, thank you. I'm not about to be in the middle of the ocean at night, at dark, so that huge wild animals can swim around me.
C: Especially since the dolphin thing was a little intimidating because you would like put your face down in the water, and there'd be this pod of like 20 to 30 dolphins underneath you. I just remember thinking at one point in time, like, 'Oh, if they wanted to overtake all of us and kill us, they could do it. No problem.' Like they're bigger. They've got the advantage cuz they're in the water. Anyway, that's my anxiety talking, but it was a lot of fun.
There were like two different types of dolphins for that time of year. And the smaller ones, they call spinner dolphins because they literally jump out of the water and like spin five or six times and then dive back in. And we had our faces in the water at one point in time. And I remember this llittler spinner comes up underneath me and kinda like turns his head to look back at me, like "watch this." And I like follow him as he like jumps out of the water and then spins and turns around and looks right at us. And then dives, like if dolphins could wink, I would swear that he was winking at us.
S: Yeah. It was super cute. Little dolphin was so playful. And so like, "Hey guys, look at me." So yeah, after our honeymoon, we came back and the three years after we got married were pretty rough for us. We had a lot of like personal struggles and personal turmoil. I stopped getting promoted at work. I threw out my back twice. We had some major deaths in our family, C:'s grandma passed away, and my aunt passed away. We had a lot of grieving time, and we just had, we had a lot of issues going on.
C: Yeah. Our finances were growing tighter despite the fact that we were both making more money than we had ever had. We just couldn't get ahead. We were starting to fall behind. And on top of that, we weren't at a church, and we were praying to God, and we were asking about what's next. And we've had all these big dreams we felt God was saying, wait. And that was getting really frustrating to just wait because it really felt like we were stuck in the mud and spinning our tires. And then ironically, as hard as 2020 was even for us, in some ways, it was also the turning point for us.
S: Yeah, for sure. We were dealing with a bit of internalized homophobia, where we both felt like we were both affirming. We both believe that it was ok to be gay and to be Christian. But then, when all these trials were coming, we were like, "Is this because we're gay? Is this because we misheard God that we weren't really listening?" And We knew that wasn't true. But those thoughts kind of kept reoccurring. And those first three years were pretty rough.
Like the crazy thing is like, our relationship was solid. Like our relationship was in a really good place. Like it was really nice to have someone else to lean on. Cuz all these things were going on, but at the same time, like we weren't alone. Like we can face it together. And it was a really bonding time for us. So there was some good that came out of those trials, but we were just like, "ok, God," like we kept seeking his face. We kept asking him what he wants us to do. And for me specifically, I was praying like, "can I be a pastor again?" Like, "can I start preaching again?" Like "what's up?" And I, and I heard God very clearly say that "you're not preaching again until you deal with the bitterness in your heart." And I just felt God say like, "I don't need anymore bitter pastors. So you need to deal with, with the betterness of your heart before, before you're going to be allowed to do anything."
C: Yeah. And so we actually briefly ended up back in church this past year, after almost four years away. And we were sitting in one of the services one day, and God just told me to quit my job. And, he told you that same day that I was gonna tell you something crazy and to just go with it,
S: He's like, "I'm going to speak to her during the service. And what I say is like legit." So when she told me, like, "I feel like God's telling me to quit my job." I was like, "Ooh," but at the same time, I was like, "Hey, do it."
C: And this was at the end of February. So this was before lockdowns, but this was, as people were starting to find out just how serious coronavirus was, and it was very scary because, you know, I've been unemployed for long periods of time, and it didn't feel safe to do it. But at the same time, I felt like I couldn't continue to ask God for breakthrough and then not follow what he was telling me to do. So I gave two weeks' notice, and we didn't have a plan. We knew that we could get by, but, um, there was no plan for me to have a job after that. And then the last day of work, I got notification of a completely different position opening up in my old company. One that would allow us to start doing the things that we knew that God was leading us to do. And so I applied for that job. I got it. And then I drug you along with me, you applied for that job, and you got it. So we switched jobs, and that was kind of the turning point for us.
S: Yeah. It was a turning point for us. But a little bit before that, um, I had started going to counseling. Because I was having panic attacks every day at work. So I started going to therapy to deal with my anxiety. And it was kind of like this long process, and that happened at the very end of 2019 where I actually had to take five weeks off from work, which is weird for me. Cuz I have worked since I was 15. So I had like five weeks off, started seeing a therapist, started dealing with some of my, my issues, and started dealing with the bitterness that God told me to deal with. And so 2019 into 2020 for us was kind of, it was a hard time. But at the same time, we were finally moving forward. We were finally seeing some results.
C: And those jobs that we got were great; they're way better for us spiritually and emotionally, and physically. But financially, we took a 25% pay cut to do that. So our finances are even tighter than they were before, even though we're way happier. And we're doing the things that we know God has called us to do. So 2020 has come with its own struggles for us.
S: Yeah. And we, we were trying to go to church again. We finally found an affirming church, great pastor; the guy truly loves God. He truly is walking the walk.
C: Yeah, this church it's progressive, and it's inclusive. And it's all the things that we thought that we were looking for in a church. But when we started going there, God just made it very clear that it wasn't where we were supposed to be. He kinda led us to realize that it's not the beliefs of a church. It's the way that the church has set up, in our modern-day in our country is not serving him the best. He led us out of that church; even though it was everything that we had been looking for and praying for, we realized it wasn't actually what we had been looking for and praying for.
And that's when God really started to give us a different vision for church. And looking back on that now, what we've really been doing is going through the process of deconstructing and reconstructing our faith. And that's what's led us to this podcast. So that's what we're going to be doing. We're going to be sharing our process of deconstruction, but also where we're at and reconstructing our faith now.
S: I had this, like, idea to start a podcast, this vision, to start a podcast. And I tried to do it by myself. Cuz Chandra, in the beginning, was kind of not interested in doing podcasts. So I was kind of like doing it on my own, and it was like, it was horrible. It was so bad. Like obviously you guys, did not hear it because it was really, really bad.
So as we were praying, as we were seeking, and as we were just asking God, "ok, what is next for us?" We didn't know what God wanted us to do specifically. Cuz there's so much going on in the world right now. And there's so much turmoil. And it's like, "ok, God, where do we go? Where do we jump in?" Because there's so many issues, there's so many things that needs to be addressed. There's so many things that need action. So "what is our calling?" Because everyone has a different calling, right? And then, finally, God spoke to both of us and was like, "this podcast."
C: Yeah. So God made it very clear that for us, our next step was this podcast and sharing our journey and sharing our thoughts. I mean, you come from this background of having gone through seminary and stuff, but I don't. And so, my beliefs come directly from what God has told me and my own journey of learning how to trust my own discernment and instincts when it comes to spiritual things. So, we come at it from two very different perspectives; even though we're married, we don't agree on everything all the time. Spiritually.
S: No, not at all. Our theology is not a hundred percent inline and you'll, and you'll hear that because our next section of things is going to be talking about deconstruction, looking at the Bible, and looking at different things. And you will see that we do not have the same opinions on everything, but at the same time, it really doesn't matter because we're seeking after God we're believing that the Holy Spirit speaks to us and that guides us and directs us and brings enlightenment to us. And, and a lot of things that people have made deal-breakers in faith are not deal breakers at all. Like they're just not like we don't have the same view on hell. We don't really have a hundred percent same view of scripture. Actually, theologically, there's a lot of differences between me and Chandra, but at the same time, we know how to follow Jesus's teachings, how to seek the Holy Spirit, how to trust what we believe God's saying to us, how to walk in a relationship with God and with each other, without being like a hundred percent agree on everything, you know, because we are separate people, we do have different beliefs. We do have different thoughts, and that's totally fine. That's the thing is like we don't have to agree on every single aspect, what we have to be in agreement on. I think as the body of Christ is that we are going to seek the kingdom. First. We are going to seek God's kingdom and bring it here on earth, and we're going to lift up the oppressed and the marginalized, and the aliens living among us. And we're going to lift up the orphans and the widows as the entire Bible tells us about. And I'm going to get a little preachy, obviously already did. But the one thing that we see throughout the Bible, the one commandment that is very, very clear through the entire Bible from the, from Genesis to revelations is that God has called his people to lift up the voiceless, to lift up the marginalized and to lift up the oppressed. And that is the one thing throughout the entire Bible that is very, very clear. So that to us is the most important thing to agree on.
C: So yeah, that's what our podcast is about. In a nutshell, it's about deconstructing, but more importantly, reconstructing your faith, and it's our journey of letting go of the dogma and the religion and finding Jesus, which is still a process that we're engaging in on a day-to-day basis. This is our journey. This is where we're at now, and this is where we've been.
S: Yeah. So we hope that you will continue on the ride with us. Our next episode will actually be a Q and A of questions that we've gotten about our stories, our story together, and all of that jazz. So the next episode is actually going to be a Q and A, and then after that episode, we're going to get into the nitty-gritty let's get into the Bible. We're going to get into some theology cuz I dig it, man, I dig deep theology. But until then, until our next episode, you can find us at Facebook/queerchatsaboutjesus...
C: Or on Instagram, instagram.com/queerchatsaboutJesus.
S: Or on our website, www.queerchatsaboutjesus.com.
C: On our website. You can also find all back episodes of our podcast. You can find links to everywhere you can listen to us, which includes Apple, Spotify, Google, Overcast, Radio Republic, and Stitcher.
S: Yep. And you can also sign up for our newsletter, which is basically a Chandra blog. So that comes out every week. If you want a little bit more info, if you want some more links and stuff like that, then you can sign up for our newsletter.
C: It's basically a deep dive of the things that we're talking about since we can only release once a month right now, which is going to continue for the foreseeable future because our apartment sucks balls. I mean, that's what it is.
S: Sure. Ok. Um, I don't know how to end now cause you threw me off well until next time, keep chatting about Jesus.
C: Bye.