Sarah & Chandra share how they met, became friends, then girlfriends. They talk about "pre-dates," internalized homophobia in queer Christians, reparative therapy, and how working through their trust issues together built a foundation for healthy love to grow.
Check out these resources to learn more about Repartitive therapy.
The Lies and Dangers of Efforts to Change Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity
Thrive LGBT+ Resources and Information Page
Special thanks to Susan J. Grella.
Music by Scott Holmes. used with permission under CC.
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S: Hi, I'm Sarah.
C: And I'm Chandra.
S: And this is queer chats about Jesus.
C: A podcast about reclaiming faith, sexuality, and Jesus within queer relationships.
S: So guys, it's, uh, the magical time of holiday season.
C: Woohoo, yay, holidays.
S: And we like this time of year.
C: Yup. Fun fact. I used to hate Christmas until about 10 years ago.
S: Yeah. I love Christmas. I love Christmas because, to me, Christmas represents hope and like just the knowledge of knowing that salvation is a gift from God and nothing that I have to earn. And Christmas is just one of those times that reminds me of God's. Goodness.
C: Yeah. That's all fine. And dandy. Mine is a lot more superficial. I just like the pretty lights and the decorations. And since it's getting colder and the sun goes down earlier, I just like all the pretty things that make our apartment light up.
S: Yeah. We actually decorate for every season. That's one of our things as a couple. And what we did for our wedding is we actually decorated every table differently. So we have all those decorations from our wedding, and we use those throughout the year. Uh, we didn't do like the normal, like every table has exact same setting because when we got together when we got married, we didn't actually have like any home stuff. So we bought all that stuff, Value Village and Ross on sale. And then we use that now for our decorations throughout the year.
C: Yeah. And I think some of our friends thought we were quite crazy for doing it that way because they thought that we were not going to reuse most of that stuff. And we've only given away like one or two tables worth of decorations because we just didn't use them, and the rest we actually use all throughout the year.
S: Yeah. A lot of people thought we were pretty nuts. They're like, "What are you gonna do with all that crap after you get married?" And it's like, we're going to decorate our home. Like "Yeah. Yeah. We'll see." Yeah. We will see.
C: Yup. You will see. And we do do it. And it's awesome. I love decorating. Brings us lots of joy.
Ok. So our last two episodes where we left off is that Sarah had just come to the realization. God had just told her that she could be gay and Christian, and I had just moved in with a couple of gay men who were also Christians, and we were attempting to live in an intentional Christian community. And then I reconnected with a girl from the mega-church who brought her wife to our LGBT Bible study. And that friend's wife brought Sarah.
S: Yeah, I arrive at the barbecue. Chandra, as a gazelle upon a Hill, bounds over to me with excitement, enthusiasm. And I was like, ok, well, this chick is thirsty.
C: We see that a little bit differently, but I love the fact that that is your first memory of how we met.
S: Yeah. I mean, that was a good impression for me cause I was like, ok, ok, what's up? You know?
C: Our Bible study skewed very heavily towards men. So I was very excited that more women were coming to our Bible study.
S: Gotcha. Ok. Well, that makes, that makes sense. I didn't realize that she had been in contact with my friend's wife, so I wasn't aware that she was actually waiting for us because she invited us, which makes a lot more sense than what I thought was just, I showed up, and some chick was like, "Dang, two chicks" run over. So that was part of the reason that I think our interpretation of that event was different Because we hadn't even made it to the park yet. We were like...
C: In the parking lot.
S: Yeah, we were still in the parking lot. That's why I was like, 'Whoa.'
C: I was definitely running out to the parking lot because I wanted to make sure that I was the first person that this couple met.
S: Yeah.
C: But anyway, the Gottman Institute says that one indication of how much affection there is in a relationship. And one side of how a relationship is doing is the way that they tell stories about each other. So that's why I love the fact that that is your story about how you met me because that just says to me that we are in a very healthy place, and there's a lot of affection between us.
S: Yeah. So that's good. So anyways, we meet at this barbecue, and we get food or whatever. I think we started actually with the circle didn't we?
C: Yeah. I can't remember. I just remember the circle. I don't remember what the order was of the evening, but we were standing in this circle, and we actually had about half a dozen people that were new to our group that night. So we did an introduction thing where it was like, say your name and your, a little bit about your background, and you and I were standing across from each other in that circle.
S: Well, it was actually say your name, your sexual identity, and your pronoun.
C: Right. That's right.
S: Yeah. And I didn't feel comfortable actually at that time saying I was a lesbian. So I think when it came around to me, I was like, I'm Sarah. I like women a lot. And she, she, her, I remember that because I didn't, I did not feel comfortable identifying as a lesbian at that moment because, like my grandma had basically used it as a swear word all growing up.
C: Right. Yeah. And I just remember standing in that circle, and you had this hoodie on, and you were in your bakery clothes. So you were in white Dickies and, you had the sweatshirt hoodie pulled over your face, and you were just trying to burrow as far as you could into it. And I thought it was the cutest thing ever.
S: Yeah. That's what she say's she thinks I was like, Oh, like burrowed in, but I was cold, and my ears were cold, and I have very sensitive ears. And so I had my hoodie on to protect my ears, but she does not believe me. She's like, "No, you were just so awkward. And so cute, just like a little, like a little, little chick, the little chick who needs to be nurtured." I'm like, oh God, like that's not, how, I want to be remembered just FYI no, no, no.
C: Ok. So then, later that evening, we actually started talking, and we got to know each other a little bit better. And I just remember, I don't remember everything we talked about, but I do remember that we bonded over the fact that we had both been in youth ministry around the same points in our life. And we started sharing some of the stories that we've shared in the last couple of episodes. And I just remember, like, I remember feeling that night that I had met somebody that I could be really good friends with. And that was something I had really been missing in my life since my ex cause that was actually one of the hardest things for me to lose in that relationship was the kinship and the friendship and the fact that we were so close and just shared everything. So I do remember going home that night thinking I might've met my new best friend.
S: Yeah. And I definitely went home that night, thinking like there's two potential women that I have been talking to that night that I was like, 'Hmm, interesting.' Chandra was one. The other one turned out to be a little bit too clingy for me. Cuz like basically the second time I talked to her, she's like, "Let's move in together and do this like youth hostel, and we'll share a room." And I was like, 'Whoa,'
C: "That's a little too intense for me. We just met."
S: Yeah, that was a little much right out the gate. I mean, we hadn't even had like coffee together or something before that. And I was like, 'dang, ok. Pump the brakes, sister.'
C: For sure.
S: So we meet at the barbecue, we have this kind of instant connection, and then Chandra disappeared off the face of the planet.
C: Right. Cause immediately after that night, pretty much I think like almost the next day, I got the biggest break of my creative career, and I got hired to work on a pilot for a new streaming show.
So a little insider baseball on production, TV networks, and now the streaming services for a series, they will produce the first episode called a pilot. And then, based on the production value of that, they will decide whether or not they're going to pick up the whole series. So Seattle got this rare opportunity that one of the streaming services decided to produce a pilot in Seattle. And I was chosen to be a part of the props department for that pilot.
So for the three weeks, right after we met, I was working like 16 hour days, like 60 to 70 hours a week doing this pilot. And then, the boys I was living with decided to host our Bible study at our house for that entire month. So it was this weird month of like, I couldn't actually come to Bible study, but everybody would be at my house when I got home.
S: Yeah, And so I felt like we kind of have this like connection at the barbecue. And then we started doing Bible study at her house, she was like kind of run in and run out. And like, she was like popping at the very, very end, but I was kind of like, well obviously this chick's not really into me. So I was kind of over it a little bit at that point in time.
C: Yeah. But before that, I had actually indicated that I was interested in you because we were giving a tour of the house, like the second or third week that we hosted and a group of us were up on the roof, and you had worn, eye make up that night, which is something you don't typically do. You don't wear a lot of makeup. And I had said, your eyes look really pretty when you wear makeup.
S: Yeah, that's true. But I was just like, 'ok, well, maybe she's not that into me.' And then she said that I got a little bit more encouraged, and then our friends started hanging out. So, I was hanging out with two married women, and she was hanging out with her two gay roommates, who are male. And so we all started like getting together.
C: Right. And we should also say my roommates were dating. So my roommates were dating. Your closest friends were dating. And we were like the odd singles.
S: So we were hanging out the six of us, there was obviously some like chemistry going on between me and Chandra. And they had invited us over to their place a few times.
So I was like to my friend, I was like, "Hey, let's invite them to your place. I'll cook. And we'll invite them." And she was like, "yeah, cool." So me and her had been like kind of drinking that day, like getting ready for this barbecue. And I thought I'd heard Chandra oversay at the, the Bible study the first time we met that she was a vegetarian and I like to cook like steaks.
And so I was like prepping my steaks or whatever. And I got her like some black bean burgers And um, I was like getting the the barbecue ready, but I was getting really, really nervous because I did, I did like her at this point in time, I did have like, you know, some feelings for her or whatever.
And my friend's like, "Oh, you have to season the grill." And she had been drinking a lot. She was pretty toasted. At this point in time and she like busts out this, like olive oil spray, and I'm like, 'ok, but it's steak, so it's not like it sticks like crazy.' And she just like lights her grill up. But I'm like, she's like, she's like legit. She knows how to cook and stuff. So I was like, 'ok, well, it's her grill. She knows what she's doing.'
Anywho, So as they come, I'm like inside, and I was prepping the side dishes and the entire grill like catches on fire. It's like three feet flames, like shooting out the side of the grill. Cause the lid was down, and I'm like, "Oh Shit." So I like go out there and I like get these like super long metal tongs and like flip, open the barbecue, I turn off the gas, and I'm like grabbing the steaks off. And now they're like charred on one side. And I was like, "Oh God." I was like so embarrassed because I was already so nervous about them coming over. And I was already like super, super on edge. And, yeah, I burnt the steaks just on one side, but I burned them, and it was very, very embarrassing.
C: Yeah. So we walk into the apartment, and it is, we should also mention, they had a kid, and so it is three women and one child running around like chickens with their heads cut off like "sorry. We lit the grill on fire. It's going to be ok." But it's like high energy, high chaos, and the three of us are just kind of like what the eff did we just walk into?
And then we get that under control and stuff. And you're like, "I made you bean burgers." And I was like, "ok." And you like looked at me and, you're like, "you are a vegetarian. Right?" And I just start to laugh. And I'm like, "no, not at all. I love meat." And you're like, "Oh, ok. Uh, well, I made you steak too, just in case." And it was like, at that moment that I realized that there was definitely something between us, like what was like a spark turned into like, 'Oh, ok. I think I think there might be a little bit of interest here.'
S: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was willing to cook her, do two different types of things. Cause I did buy her steak too. Cause I'm like, 'well, what if I misheard her?' Which I did. And um, so it was good that I had steak busted out. Otherwise, she would have been probably pretty salty, but that night went pretty well. And then we just kind of kept hanging out the six of us for a while.
C: Yeah. It was like a good couple of months.
S: Yeah. So my friends are like, "she's like into you," like, "you need to ask her out." Like, "you need to like seal the deal." And I'm kinda like, "no, it's not necessary like, we're just hanging out," and they're like, "no, she really, really likes you." Like, "you need to ask her out." And I was like, "ok, well, I'm going to ask her out on like a pre-date." So for me, if I'm interested in a woman, I will like hang out. But not as a date date, like as friends, because I need to see if there's like any kind of interest there or whatever. So I always do like a pre-date. Right. So like usually go out to dinner or something with somebody and just like hang out or like do a day activity. And it's like my way of like kind of testing the water. So I asked Chandra out on this pre-date, and then she keeps like, not getting that, I'm asking her out. So she's like, "Oh…."
C: Ok. So hold on. Back up.
S: Yeah.
C: So we were Facebook messaging, and you were just like casually chatting, and I'm at home watching. I think it was Battlestar Galactica actually with my roommates' cuz we were super into that show at the time. And we're just messaging back and forth. And then it was like all of a sudden, out of the blue, you just like, ask me if I want to go to this concert with you.
S: Yeah. It was a Halloween Concert.
C: Right.
S: Yeah.
C: And so I was like, Oh sure. Cause I liked to going to shows. But then it was like after I agreed to go to the concert, it was like, Oh, and then we can dress up for Halloween and Oh, then we can do this. So it wasn't like you just came out and asked me. It was like, you kept adding things onto this thing. And it's so it was like, it started out, it was like, "Oh, let's just go do this concert." And I've gone to concerts with friends before like hundreds of times like I used to be a teeny bopper. So that's not a big deal to me. That's not like an indication of like, 'Oh, we're taking things to the next level.'
S: Right. Because that wasn't my intention. But because I was with my lesbian friends, every time I said something, they're like, "she doesn't know it's a date." And I'm like, "well, it's not really a date, it's just us hanging out." They're like, "no, you need to have a date." Like "you need to do it like right. You need to like bring her flowers and like pick her up and like all this stuff." And I'm like, "ok, but this is kinda just like a pre-date." And they're like, "the pre-dates not a thing." And I was like, "well, it is to me," like whatever.
So like they were pressuring me the whole time to like make sure she knew it was a date and the whole time she's like, "well, why don't you come by?" Like, "we'll have dinner with the guys. And then we can go," and I'm like, "no, like if you want to go to dinner, I will take you out to dinner." So I was kind of like indicating more and more that it was a date because my friends were pushing me to like treat her. Right. And I was like, ok. So I was like trying to be like respectful of all that. And so we were basically like getting pushed to make it more serious than I had anticipated.
C: Right. And so from my end, it was like, "Oh, let's go to this show together." I was like, "ok, cool." And then it was like, "ok, let's get dressed up for Halloween." So we had like this big, old conversation about what we were going to wear. And like, you were like, "I really want to be a pirate." And I was like, "I can be a wench." So we're like having this good, funny, flirty conversation. It was flirty. It was definitely flirty. But I definitely wasn't picking up on the fact that it was a date. Like I wasn't even picking up on the fact that from your end, it was a pre-date. I was like, 'Oh, this is taking our friendship to the next level. And we'll continue to see if something's here.'
And then you mentioned dinner. And I was like, "Oh yeah." Cause one of the things that we did as a community is we invited people over for dinner all the time. And I was like, "yeah, sure. You can come to dinner. This is what time it is." And then you were like, "no, I don't want to have dinner with you and your roommates. I want to just have dinner with you. I'll pick you up at this time, and we'll go to this place." And I was like, "oh, ok, sure."
And, so we like quickly wrapped it up after that. Like that was pretty much the end of our conversation. And then all of it caught up to me, and I put all the details together at that point in time. And I looked over at my roommates, and I was like, "I think Sarah just asked me out on a date. And they were like, what really? And I was like, but I'm not entirely sure." And so I read back the key parts of our conversation to them. And they're like, "yeah, she definitely asked you out on a date."
S: Yeah.
C: And at that point in time, I was like, 'Oh crap.' Because I had also reconnected with my ex that same week. And I was realizing that there were still feelings there on my end. And I knew that I needed to deal with those before I got involved with anything else. Like I knew that I wasn't going to get back together with my ex, but I also realized that there were still residual feelings that I was working through. And I didn't want to bring that into a new relationship.
S: So I asked her out one night, my friends were pressuring me to like make sure she has this date and like treat her right. Bring her flowers, open doors. I'm like, "Oh, ok." You know, cause I've never really dated. Cause every time I was like with somebody or like, it was all this like underground, like no one actually said how they felt. And there was just relationship vibes, if you will. But it wasn't like any of us were out of the closet. So it was always just like really flirty, really like physical, major relationship vibes, but it was never like, 'Oh, this is a relationship.' So this is like the first time basically I've asked a girl out, and I was pretty stoked that she said yes. And I was like, 'cool.' I was feeling good. And then I get a text from her the next day. And it's like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that was a date. I'm not dating right now." And like all this stuff. And I was just like, 'what the fuck?'
C: Yeah. And I felt really bad backing off of that because I really did want to hang out with you. And I was really looking forward to it, but I was just like, 'if this is a date, I'm not ready for it.' I felt like I needed to be super honest with you about that because yeah. Now that you mentioned that, I'm remembering what was really going on is to get over my ex I had told myself that I was not going to date or pursue anybody for a year. And I was six months into that. So I was like really thinking about whether or not I was willing to release that boundary yet. And I wasn't.
So I was like, so nervous about messaging you. I thought it was going to ruin this friendship, but I just felt like it was better, to be honest with you. And so I messaged you; I think I admitted that I was interested in you, and I wanted a friendship, but I was like, "I just can't date right now."
S: Yeah. So on my end, is like the first time I really asked a girl out who was out of the closet and legitimately like, ok, dating women. And she like shut me down. And I was like pretty upset about it. I was pretty pissed off. But at the same time, I was like, 'Oh, really?' Because I am an Aries. I, I do have this like competitive streak of like somebody tells me no. Then I want to be like, 'Oh, I'll make you say yes.' But like, I was also respectful.
But anyways, so I kind of freaked out, and I like show my two really good friends who are a bit older than I am. So they've, they've been around, they've seen some shit, and I showed them the text or message or whatever it was. And I was like, "uh, I don't even know what to do with this." And they were like, "well, she's just being honest. She's just saying she's not ready right now." Like they could read through it. And they were like, "she's being honest with you. This isn't shady. This isn't her like jerking you around" because I had been jerked around by so many women previous to this that I was like, 'ok, you don't want me then eff you, I will show you that you want me' by, you know, basically playing what we call the asshole game. But anyways, so...
C: You did do that a little bit.
S: I did do that a little bit, not as much as I would have had I not had good counsel. So basically, for me, I was like, I have had like these quasi relationships for a long time. It was like woman after woman after woman. My ex wasn't the last; there was another one in between. And it was basically like, I kept getting jerked around by these women. Like they would want me for emotional support and this, that, or the other, but they would never come out. So they were like these straight women, or they wanted to pretend like they're straight or they don't realize they're Bi. I don't know. But there was like, there was so many of them, and they had jerked me around so much that I was like, 'I'm not doing this again.'
Like, so I, I texted back, I texted her back, and I was like, "I'm not going to be in the friend zone." I was like, "I'm not going to like, I don't want to be in this quasi relationship." I said, "so if you want to be friends, that's totally fine. And if you want to wait and like, you have this boundary, like I'm ok with that." Cause I was ok with it. But at the same time, I was like, "I am not going to be just in limbo on the hook with you either."
C: Right. And I said, "that's totally fair." You shared with me some of those situations that had happened and why that was a boundary for you. And I was like, "yeah, I totally get it. And this is why we're having this conversation because it's not my intent to jerk you around or to be dishonest with you. I'm just not ready for that." And you were like, "that's ok, but I'm not going to ask you out again. If you want to go out with me, you're going to have to ask now."
S: Yeah.
C: And for me, that was kinda like, 'Oh God,' like at that point in time, I really didn't think that anything was ever going to happen between us because I wasn't in a place yet where I was willing to take that step in a relationship, I had always believed that I would be pursued.
So for you to put that back on me and be like, "ok, well, then you're going to have to pursue me a little." I was like, 'I don't know that I'm going to do that.' But I think I also told you that what I really needed at that point in time was friendship more than anything. And I think you were kind of like, "well, you've been flirting with me. So if that's what you need, then you need to stop flirting with me."
S: Yeah. Cause it was, I mean like that was kind of like my story up until this point, which when I was in the closet was one thing, because I didn't really want to pursue a relationship because I was trying to be celibate. But now that I was out and I was really looking for a relationship, and I wanted to date, and I wanted to see the prospects and then her to be like, "Oh, let's be friends. I'm like, I have friends."
C: Right. Yeah.
S: I'm like, I mean, "that's cool if you want to be friends, but like I do have friends. So that's not really what I'm looking for," but I was like, "we can, we can keep doing this." But what I actually told you is, "I only ask once."
C: That's right. That's what you said.
S: Yeah, and that's kind of my thing. Like I don't mind asking, but I'm not the type to like ask and ask and ask I'm, like, I'll ask you once, you know, my intention, you know what, where I'm at. So if you want to pursue this, then you need to ask me because I'm not just going to keep putting myself out there for rejection. Like that's not how I roll.
C: But then you did kind of play games with me. Cause that week, you then did go to that concert, and you did get dressed up, and you have since admitted that you deliberately dressed up that way to make me jealous.
S: Ok. So I didn't go to the concert. I went bar hopping with my friend.
C: Oh, that's right. That's right.
S: I went bar hopping with my friend. I, I've never really dressed up as an adult for Halloween because I was in the church, and you know, they have an issue with Halloween. And so it was always this awkward, like, can I dress up? Can I not dress up? But I always wanted to. So like it wasn't just about you, but it was somewhat about you. Cause I had been working on my costume for months.
C: Yeah.
S: Yeah. So anyways, I was like, I was like, "I'm going to go out." But I definitely posted all those pictures on social media to make you jealous. For sure.
C: You definitely posted pictures of not just you, but you with other women who were dressed up the way I was talking about dressing up to be like, "see, I found someone else."
S: Well, no, she actually did that on her own. That wasn't me.
C: I know. But you were deliberately trying to make it look like that.
S: Oh, well, I didn't post the picture of the chick that was actually hitting on me because there was this chick. Like I was like just dancing it out or whatever. She like comes up like grinding on me and shit. She was like dressed as a fairy or whatever. She was trying to get a little piece of the pie. But, at that time, I was interested in you, and I wasn't going to like, jack it up by hooking up with some rando in a bar.
C: Yeah. And I really wasn't jealous of you going out that night. I was legitimately happy that you were doing something that you wanted to do because you had told me that that was important for you for that year. So I was super happy, but I did know that you were posting those pictures, at least in part, to try and make me jealous. It didn't work, though.
S: Well, those are just actually my friends. But anywho. So there was a little like cat and mouse playing games. And this whole time that we're like doing this, even though I've heard from God, I like looked into the scriptures and stuff like that. It was still hard for me to date or like pursue a relationship because, I mean, internalized homophobia does not go away overnight.
C: No, it doesn't.
S: So that was also why it was hard that she was like, not just like, "well, let's do this." You know, because I already like having a bit of a struggle with being ok with dating. It was like another level of like coming to terms with my homosexuality. Even though I had dated women. So part of the issue that was like hard for me is because she kept kinda like pumping the brakes, but then she'd like be super flirty and stuff. And I was like, 'I'm waiting, but I'm not waiting.' I'm like, 'if we're just friends, then I can see other people, but I don't want to see other people cause I am interested in her.' So it was kind of this, like back and forth bit of a mess.
C: Right? So the changing point for me came one night, and I remember this distinctly, my roommates and I had gone out to dinner, and while we were walking back from that restaurant, my ex texted me, and we started texting that night. And then you started texting me. So I was texting her, and I was texting you at the same time. I was having a normal conversation with her, but she was dragging my mood down, and I was having a really good conversation with you, and you were lifting me up. And so, for the first time, I could kind of like, see the juxtaposition. And then my conversation with you wrapped up earlier than my conversation with her. But something you told me specifically that night is you said, "I know what you're doing, and I know why you're doing. And I just want you to know I'm gonna wait because I think that there's something here and I want to see where it goes. So I'm not trying to pressure you. I'm just letting you know that I'm not going to pursue anybody else for a few months to give you the space that you need and see where this goes."
S: You would like say these things just to kind of like, see how I'd respond. Like you would say things like that you thought were going to be like offensive or like a barrier to us to just kind of like test the waters. I could see you like testing me, which I was fine with. I'm like "test away" because like I knew my character and stuff. I knew like I'm not, you know, some kind of weirdo or anything. And at that time, I was like, you were the girl that I was interested in, and I'm not the type that I can be like, 'oh, I'm interested in this person. And I'm dating other people.' I'm like definitely a one, one girl at a time type of person. So I don't really like pursue anything else until I'm over, somebody that I was interested in,
C: Right. Me either. And the thing was, I didn't even know what I was doing. I wasn't even aware enough to realize that I had been testing you in that way. And usually, I'm pretty self-aware. So you said that, and it made me stop and think, and it kind of like, it was one of those things where I got like immediate butterflies, because it was something that I needed to hear, but didn't realize that I needed to hear it. I remember feeling vulnerable because you were seeing me in a way that I couldn't even see myself. And that scared me and excited me all at the same time.
So meanwhile, I'm also texting the ex, and that conversation is going nowhere. Cause she's being manipulative, she was like trying to make it seem like she was completely disinterested in our conversation. But she's the one who initiated it. I like get super frustrated, and I throw my phone down on the couch, and my roommates were like, "what's up?" And so I like told them, and I told them what you had said. And my one roommate looks at me and he goes, "you know," he's like, "you've spent so much time like pining over your ex and stuff. And yet this week, every single time you have a conversation with her. Like your mood is in the toilet. And every single time you have a conversation with Sarah, your mood gets way better." Like "Sarah makes you happy. And this other person doesn't." It was just good to have somebody vocalize that. They saw that because I was already feeling that, but I wasn't yet in a place to give myself permission to do what was necessary to respond to that.
And then the next day, my ex texted me again. And she immediately knew something had changed in me because my tone was different. I wasn't immediately responding to her when she texted me, and within an hour, she was no longer texting me. And that was the last time I talked to her.
S: Oh, Really!?
C: Yeah, It was just like, when she wasn't getting that immediate hit from me, she just lost interest completely. And she knew that she no longer had any hold on any of my emotions, And so I never heard from her again after that.
S: I didn't know all that was going on. I was just like, 'I'm interested in you. I'm going to wait for you,' and that's cool. So we, we kept hanging out as friends. But there was just that flirtation going on. There was that attraction.
I think the thing that threw both me and Chandra off is our attraction to each other was like a much more comfortable attraction. If that makes sense. Like we were attracted to each other, but our exes, both of us, um, we had a much more like, I dunno, visceral reaction to them. Like my ex, I just felt like that; my love for her was a lot more passionate. It was a lot more, Romeo and Juliet. Like, "I can't stay away from you."
And with Chandra, it was a comfortable attraction where it was like, you feel like someone that I don't have to be like, afraid around. Like, you feel comfortable to me. I can trust you. There was feelings there, but they were like a lot more subtle and a lot healthier than with my ex. It was like, "I need you." "I can't be away from you." "I have to be with you." Like that weird kind of over the top codependent like if I was at a meeting without her, I'd be like, 'oh, I can't stand it.' It wasn't like that with Chandra. So I kind of was like, 'is this like the real deal?' Or like, 'what's up?' Because it was just a lot more comfortable.
C: Right. And I think for me, my relationship with my ex felt much more like an addiction. I needed that time. I needed that attention. I needed that physical connection. And that was a really hard thing to break after we broke up. But with you, it felt healthy. It was like, I want to be around you. I want to talk to you. I want to get to know you better. I want to support you. It was want versus need. And that, for me, like made all the difference because it was like, I still recognized that if I kept talking to her, that connection would be hard to break. Even though the rules had changed, they wouldn't have changed for very long if I had stayed in touch, right?
S: Right.
C: Because that need and that addiction would have come back. But I had had enough therapy and had done enough self-improvement stuff by that point in time to recognize that that's what it was. It was just that need. And that need isn't healthy. But with you, it was want, I wanted to talk to you more. It wasn't because I had to talk to you. We enjoyed hanging out with each other. We enjoyed each other's presence. But we could go back to our lives when we were apart. And the more we hung out, the less we wanted to be a part, but it wasn't that when we were apart, we couldn't go on with our day.
S: Right.
C: So that lasted a couple of weeks, where we really started to hang out more and talk more. And we were going from talking once a day to being in touch all day, every day. And I think we did that for like what, two or three weeks.
S: Yeah. Should've been about that.
C: And then we were hanging out one night, and we had kind of gone on some more pre-dates by then.
S: And I was kinda like, at that point in time, I was like, "ok, you keep saying that we're still just friends, but like, it doesn't feel like that." So, I kind of was like, "ok, if you want to be just friends, that's fine because I do like you as a person, but I really want to start dating. So I need to know if I'm waiting for you because we are going to date and we're just waiting for your birthday, or I'm waiting for you. And you're just going to friendzone me because I'm not ok with that. And I want to date. So if you're really my friend," I said, "are you ok with me dating other people?"
C: And I said, "no."
S: Yeah.
C: I said, "there is something here, and I am interested in pursuing it, but I'm still not ready to make it official yet."
S: Yeah. And for me, that was like, "ok, cool. I'll wait." Like, "it's not a problem." Because for me, it was just like, she hadn't really committed to dating me. She was just like, "I'm not dating anyone right now." And it was kind of like a little bit of a gameplay, or I felt like that she was being honest, but I felt like she was just kind of keeping me on the hook. So I was like, "no, I need like to know like, what's up."
C: Right
S: She answered that question. And.
C: Then I think it was like a week later we were hanging out, and you had met my mom by this point in time. And that was like a big step for me. And the two of you got along as well as I could expect anyone to get along with my mom because she still wasn't accepting at that point in time; she was willing to work through those things. But she was still really uncomfortable with the idea of me being openly bisexual and me being in a relationship with a woman.
S: And she told me.
C: Right.
S: And I was like, 'Oh, this is awkward.'
C: Right. You had actually started coming to the church that I was attending at that point in time a couple of times. But I was actually doing a church Bible study with this other woman. And she was quickly becoming one of my closest friends. And the three of us got along together like gangbusters. And I just kind of realized like, by this point in time, you and I were hanging out every day, you were coming over to the house and having dinner with us almost every night. If we weren't hanging out every day, we were talking to every day.
And so it was just kinda like, I just kinda realized I was like, 'we're already dating.' And so you left after Bible study one night, and I followed you out to the car. And I sat in the car, and I was like, "ok." I was like, "this is the way that I see it. We're hanging out all the time. We're talking every day. We're basically dating, aren't we?" And you were like, "yeah, pretty much." I said, "ok. I'm still not ready to go any further than where we're at right now. But if you promise me that this is where our relationship will stay for a little bit, then let's make it official." And we talked it over a few more minutes, and then we decided that we were going to make it official. And you looked at me, and you were like, "so does that mean that I get to call you my girlfriend?" And I was like, "have you ever called anybody, your girlfriend before?" And you were like, "no." And I was like, "yes, this means you can call me your girlfriend."
S: So what she actually said she's forgetting, but what she said was, "if we say that we're actually together, what will that change?" And I said, "well, nothing really. I mean, we're already dating." And she was like, "ok, as long as it's not gonna change anything. You understand that I don't want any physical relationship until after my birthday." I was like, "ok, that's fine." And so that's what you actually said.
C: Yeah, that's right. Yep.
S: So this whole time, since we're just friends, I haven't said anything romantic than I wanted to say to her. So she's like, "is it going to change anything" And I was like, "no." And then she gets out of the car, and I'm like, "good night. Beautiful." And she's like, "you said, it wouldn't change anything." I was like, "I've been holding that one in for a long time. So you just need to deal with it."
C: And I said it while I was smiling, and my face was turning red. Because I love the fact that you called me beautiful.
S: You are beautiful. So anyways, we are now officially dating, and something happened. I don't even know how this happened, but we were having a conversation. She was at work. I was with my lesbian, married friends. We were having this conversation. I had started getting this feeling she wasn't over her ex. And she thought she had told me that. But she had had that conversation with my friends when I wasn't there that night. And so she thought I already knew that. And I did not.
C: I was at work. So we were having this conversation on the phone, which was already amping up my anxiety because, in my previous relationship, we had only ever had conflict when we were away from each other. So Sarah asked me if I was still in love with my ex, and I said, "yes, but I don't want to be."
S: Yeah. And so she told me that, and I was just kinda like, "ok, I need to get off the phone with you." And I, I called up my best friend. I was like, "I'm having a really hard time." Like, "can you chat?" And she's like, "yeah, I'll come over." So she came over to my other friend's house, and she's like, just come outside. So just you and me can talk. And I was like, "ok." So I get into her car. And I told her what had happened. And that Chandra was still in love with her ex but said she didn't want to be. And so I'm like freaking out. I'm like, "I got to break up with her." Cause my lesbian friends had been like, "Oh, that's a deal-breaker. You can't put up with that. That's disrespectful to you," and they're telling me like "dump her." And so my best friend's like, "um, you've only been dating a few weeks. She obviously doesn't want to be in love with her. And she's obviously into you. So you need to just wait and see what happens." She's like, "if in a year from now, she's still into her ex, then that is the time to break up with her. But for right now, you need to calm down, and you need to respect the fact that she's being honest with you. She's not lying to you. And she's just trying to be respectful and, and have an open conversation." She's like, "back the crazy train up." And I was like, "Oh, ok." So my best friend basically saved our relationship.
C: Right. And because women who love women relationships move so fast, we had kind of like made it this game in our relationship to not say, "I love you." And so we were like finding creative ways to basically say it without saying it, because we had only been dating for five weeks, and we both wanted to kind of avert that stereotype of moving way too fast. And so when you call me back, and you were like, "I talked to my friend, she like said this and stuff," and I was like, "right. I agree with everything that she said, it's not something I want. It's residual feelings. And I have to be honest about them, and I have to work them out. But, I don't want these feelings." Like "that's over to me, and you are my future." And I'm like, so relieved that this isn't going to be the end. And that was the first night that we said, "I love you."
S: Yep, it was the first night. We said, "I love you," after almost breaking up.
C: For sure.
S: Everything's going really well. Like we kind of fit into each other's lives pretty easily, but at the same time, I was struggling with this like internalized homophobia.
So I don't know if it was the enemy every time or if it was my own thoughts, but anytime things would happen in my life that weren't like, perfect. I would just hear it's because you're gay, and you need to repent. And like God is punishing you for being gay. And I had to like pray through that a lot and like trust the Holy Spirit and like, trust God, because I would keep getting these bombardments of this idea that I was in, in sin and lifestyle of sin. And I would pray, and I would ask God for guidance.
One of the biggest ways you can tell if it's God, or if it's not God, the enemy or your own self is, um, the shame that comes with it, anytime God's ever convicted me of sin, it has been hard. And it has been brutal. There's never been shame associated with it. And this was very shameful, and this was very condemning, and this was very harsh, and I knew it wasn't God, but it was also hard to overcome that.
And so when we're in the middle of this kind of like push and pull because it's kind of what happened when we first started dating, we'd get close, and one of us would freak out and pull away a little bit. It was getting leveled out. I think, after we finally said, "I love you." I think we pretty much leveled out after that.
C: Yeah, I think so too. And then we went into the holiday season, and meeting each other's families actually went pretty smoothly despite the fact that neither one of our families were really comfortable with us dating. So things were going smoothly in our relationship, but yeah, like you said, we would hit these hiccups, and it wasn't just you either.
It was also my roommates. For me, I never really understood where that was coming from. I had compassion and empathy, but it wasn't something that I could personally relate to because it wasn't a part of my personal story.
S: Yeah. And, and that's the thing is like, unless you've kind of gone through that and been in the church for extended period of time and know you're gay and heard the things that people said about gay people as a gay person like I knew I was gay. Because I was a Christian, and I was behind the scenes, and I was a youth pastor, and I was not dating a woman. Like no one knew that I was gay, but I'd heard people say horrible things about homosexuals. And I had heard and absorbed all this hate and all this bigotry.
It's hard to then like just overnight be over it. So all of that stuff was like still in my heart and in my soul. And that's why a lot of people don't understand, like "are homosexuals so offended? No one said anything to them," but we've heard it. Like we've absorbed this hatred towards our people before we came out. It's not what people said to me after I came out that was problematic. It's everything that I heard for 13 years when I wasn't out.
In seminary, actually, there was an entire class of, if someone comes out as LGBTQ, how to remove them from leadership, if they're in a leadership role, how to be graciously, lovingly remove them from leadership and people in my own session, which, my class was very small. We were very close people in my own session would be like, "well, if it was a, you know, the worship leader, I would go drag them off stage right then and there." And people are like, "Oh, we didn't, we didn't mean it like that." You did mean it like that because you thought it was safe. And that's a thing that Christians do as they when they think they're in their little cloister, they feel free to disparage each other and to talk crap about each other.
C: Right
S: And that's the thing they don't understand is like, I, I heard it all. And, there was just a lot of hurt that I felt, and I heard, and I heard people that I respected, and I loved talk horribly about these homosexuals, not knowing they were speaking to one and it's hard too because you have to keep your countenance.
And like, I never participated. And I did rebuke people quite a few times. And I was like, "that is not a loving way to act. That's not a loving thing to say. These are still children of God." Even when I did think it was a sin, I would still like, come against it and say like, "no, that's not ok."
But like, you absorb all of that. I don't think people realize too how many gay people and lesbians are in the church, but also how many bisexuals. And I know this from experience, and I know this from other people's experience, there's a lot of women and men in the church who are not straight, who live straight lives because they are scared and they are afraid to come out as either gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, transgender, all of that. There are so many people in the church that are hiding, and there are so many people in the church that you're hurting by thinking that you're in a safe place to talk shit.
C: True. But, I don't know how many people are hiding or how many people just don't realize because the default is on two opposite ends of the spectrum, right? You have a hundred percent straight on one end, and you have a hundred percent gay on the other side.
And it doesn't leave a lot of room in the middle for bisexuals, pansexuals, Omnisexuals, biromantic all these different identities. And I wonder how many people are hiding their bisexuality or their pansexuality and how many just don't know because they are attracted to quote-unquote the correct gender, the opposite gender for who they are. They have never thought or evaluated whether or not those attractions to the same sex are actually attractions or just friendship.
That was why I was 30 before I even contemplated whether or not it was actually attraction that I was feeling, or if it was just relational heterosexual intimacy.
S: Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I think we're talking about two different things. I think there are people that don't realize that they're bisexual and haven't come to terms with bisexuality, but I also know for a fact that there are gay, bisexual women in the church because they've hit on me because they've tried to, um, push the relationship into a physical thing without a relationship. But I know that there are way more in the church than identify that way.
C: Oh, For sure. Right. Absolutely.
S Yeah. And we also know that from other stories of other friends, there, there are definitely more people in the church than anyone realizes. The reason they haven't come out is the stigma, not only in the church but the stigma also in the LGBTQ community.
C: I think the problem comes in with groups like Exodus International; for people who don't know, Exodus international is maybe the first ex-gay conversion therapy group. And I don't know all the details about Exodus, but I know that they kind of pioneered this, this program of reparative therapy, and it's still happening today. But especially for our generation, a lot of our lesbian and gay brothers and sisters were sent to these ex-gay conversion therapy camps, where they were subjected to very harmful forms of therapy. And I don't even know how to describe it, but it was very horrific for them.
S: Well, it's shock therapy and ice baths on stuff like that. That's what some of it was
C: Right. And strict rules and journaling and accountability groups where you have to own up to things as a teenager that no teenager wants to own up to in a public setting. Lots of shame, lots of, I mean, even like pills and taking medicine that is designed to make you throw up every time you have a quote-unquote impure thought, it's just all these very horrific things meant to change your orientation.
And studies have now proven that it doesn't work, but there's so many lesbian and gay, and I'm sure bisexual Christians who have gone through these camps to try and change their orientation to be more acceptable and more pleasing to God. And if that's where you're coming from, and there's a very small percentage of those people who claim that it works. And there's a very high percentage of people where it works for a while. And then they realized that their orientation hasn't actually changed.
And what I suspect is that for the people where their orientation has quote, unquote changed, if they are not lying to themselves, then it's actually that they weren't a hundred percent straight or gay, to begin with. And they were actually bisexual or pansexual, and they had a preference for the same sex as opposed to the opposite sex. And so reparative therapy may have pushed to them or encouraged them to prefer the opposite sex instead of the same sex.
But what the data is showing very clearly is that if, you know, for a fact for yourself, that you went into one of these programs preferring the same sex, and you legitimately prefer the opposite sex, then you were not a hundred percent gay, to begin with going into those programs. Like, I'm sorry, like you just weren't.
And, and then the problem becomes those few, those handful, like literally a handful of people have gone out and published books about their experiences and written about their experiences. And they publish these things, acting like that is the path for every single LGBTQ Christian out there that all you gotta do is go through these programs and these boot camps. And they treat it like an addiction, but it's not an addiction.
And I'm not, I'm not throwing shade at those handful of people who legitimately found something from those programs. But at the same time, these programs have treated thousands of people at this point and data, straight-up shows that they don't work. And if you've got five people who come out of a program that has served thousands or hundreds of thousands of people, then you're the outlier, not the norm for the program. And yet these programs like parade, these people up in front as if they're the shining crowning example for all LGBTQ Christians and that's horrifically dangerous to the entire community,
S: Right? And so that is why we have to do the extremes. And that is why I think bisexuals get kind of underrepresented in the church as well as the LGBTQ community. Cause we kind of do have to do these extremes because if we didn't do the extremes too, um, a lot of the churches and people wouldn't understand where we're coming from and be like, well, if you can choose then, just choose a man.
C: Right.
S: But some of us can't choose. And the problem is that you can't just say one size fits all for, for people's sexuality. And it's just like, even just sitting here talking about this, it's just so ridiculous to me that the church has spent so much time focused on our anatomy and relationships with people it's such a distraction. And it's such a waste of time. If we had spent half the time, instead of like sending these kids to get shocked and ice bath and whatever, and basically brainwashed not to be gay, if we'd spent that much time and that much money on curing poverty or curing, houselessness or anything else, we would be much further along in where Christ actually told us to serve that. I think that somewhat the church's intense focus on the homosexual community on the LGBTQ community is such a wasted effort because you really think God almighty who spoke the universe into existence. You think he really cares if you have a penis or vagina, like, is he really that petty?
Even though, what Chandra said in her episode, like Jesus said, the most important thing is to 'love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.' And it doesn't say like, "Oh, caveat and hate the homosexuals."
C: Right.
S: It's ridiculous.
C: Yeah.
S: It's a ridiculous thing to be like, Oh, this all sovereign, all-knowing, all-powerful God is so petty that he wants the church not focused on saving starving children or stopping human trafficking or stop killing the planet or, you know, solving the homeless crisis or any of these things. He's not focused on those. He's focused on what woman likes to kiss other women Like, come on, really.
C: Well, And to me too, that is why it makes me sad that so many bisexual Christians do choose to stay in the closet because, quite frankly, we are the ones who point to the truth. That gender doesn't matter when you love somebody, right? Because if God created us to love more than one sex, that right, there is proof that God doesn't care which sex you love.
S: Right, and it would be nice to join arm in arm with our bisexual brothers and sisters, who I just think there's just a lot more of a population of LGBTQ+ people in the church and out, outside of the church. But there's so many societal pressures that it's hard to come out. But I do feel that's starting to change, and I do; I do see a movement of God's spirit where people are becoming more affirming, people are becoming more accepting of the LGBTQ. And that has happened throughout society, so the important thing to is that we continue to keep going forward and we keep seeking out God's will, and we keep seeking out a relationship with God, because I do believe God wants to do a new movement outside of the church walls, where people are just coming to Him and saying "ok, God I give you my life. I give you my loyalty. I give you myself. And what would you have me do?" And I think that's what we're gonna see in the next few years.
I think we're gonna see an actual move of God's Spirit outside of the church walls. And people that are just gonna say, "I just wanna glorify God, I don't wanna get into all the dogma. I don't wanna get into all the ya know, ticky, tack, of all these things that people have been focused on, and I just wanna worship Jesus. I just wanna have a relationship with the Holy Spirit. I just wanna know what God wants for my life." And I feel like that's what's happening, I feel like that's what's going to come.
C: Yeah, and we were going to get through more of our story, but that was such a good discussion that I think we should just stop there for this week and continue our story in the next episode.
S: Agreed.
C: Ok! So Sarah, before we wrap things up, what's your favorite part of Christmas?
S: Jesus. I love the story of Jesus. I love the story of God giving up His omnipresence, His, all-powerful, all these things, becoming flesh, dwelling among us in the most humiliating way possible. I just love the story of Christmas because it reflects to me how much God loves us. What's your favorite part of Christmas?
C: It's nothing as deep as that. I like our little Christmas village. I like all the buildings that light up and all the little people. I like our little doggy that's sitting at the fountain that looks like our real dog shadow. And I like all the little lights and trees that light up
S: Until next time, you can find us at www.queerchatsaboutjesus.com.
C: Or you can find us on Instagram @queerchatsaboutjesus.
S: Or on Facebook at facebook.com/queerchatsaboutjesus.
C: You can also sign up for our newsletter and listen to all backs episodes at our website. And you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, overcast, and Spotify.
Our podcast is produced by Sarah and myself with special thanks and help from Susan J Grella.
S: And our music is by Scott Holmes. Title of the music is driven to success.
C: Our next episode will come at you next month.
S: So, in the meantime, keep chatting about Jesus, and hope you enjoy the Christmas season.